last uploaded to htfiddler.net/psdocs: 1/13/08, 10:00 PM sae.pco, Plan S, see \ps\index.xls A. journal, running notes ... 1. God parodies, etc. ... a) One of Us, Joan Osborne (au:Eric Bazilian) b) What If God Smoked Cannabis, Bob Rivers 2. Century of the Self ... a) See if an online transcription is available. b) Part 3 (deleted) ... 1) self directed individuals, focus groups, inner self, Werner on becoming "nothing", human potential movement, psychology, capitalism successfully catering to the individual 2) The idea that becoming "nothing" is nothing new at all. But that the old idea of "nothing" is not based on the gene/evolutionary view. Also on Miller asserting that whatever your idea or process, it will get co-opted by the innate genetic desire for more. And so the human potential movement becomes subsumed by personal development industry, which creates endless material goods and services for sale. c) Part 4 (more transcription needed) ... 1) 42:57, Narrator: "It was the effective end of the guaranteed welfare system, created by President Roosevelt sixty years before. For many in Clinton's cabinet, it was also the end of the progressive political ideal that Roosevelt had represented ... the belief that one used a position of leadership, to persuade the voters to think and behave as social beings, not as self interested individuals." Robert Reich: "Dick Morris and the pollsters had won. And by that I mean, that the people who ultimately got to the President, shaped the President's mind, were those who viewed the voters as just a collection of individual desires, that had to be catered to and pandered to. It suggests that democracy is nothing more, and should be nothing more, than pandering to these unthought about very primitive desires ... primitive in the sense that they are not even necessarily conscious ... just what people want in terms of satisfying themselves." 2) 50:00, on Bernays, propaganda, giant corporations, business, true democracy couldn't work, Freud's theories, irrational primitive unconscious thoughts and beliefs, no control over own lives, consumerism, responsible elite manage society, people's desires in charge, democracy as passive consumers, doggie treats. 3) 56:00, Freud, selfish, ideal consumers, we like politicians, slaves of own desires, other sides of human nature, people irrational - Freud, businesses very good at appealing to these unconscious feelings, politics engage people with respect, people's abilities to debate what is best. If Freudian, why not let business do it. They do it better than pols. 4) about politics becoming fully subsumed under the endless desire for more, defined by our genes and evolution. 5) The same happened with Boris Yeltsin in Russia during late 90's. Dick Morris types commandered his election, created TV spots, and Yeltsin was re-elected. 3. Moira Timms reconnect, peg:recv:21 Nov 06 4. von mises on religion & war 5. re life-span & species-span \\lifespan ... a) we use our individual brains to prolong our life-span b) so we can use our collective brains to prolong our species-span c) but not forever! All species go extinct just as all individuals dies. But we can work hard at prolonging. 6. s-day comparison to handball court ... a) Can't tell which way the ball is going! Looks identical if shutter speed is fast enough. The point is that things will look the same, but the direction will be reversed. 7. short term, middle term, long term ... a) We already do this as individuals. We think about what has to be done this day and week, this year and also for the long term ... say the next 5 to 10 years. We also do it at the group level (families to nations). b) We can and must also do this kind of thinking and planning as a species. It is necessary to pay attention to all 3 time frames. Short term = 1 generation, 20 yrs, medium term = 5 to 10 generations, 100 to 200 yrs, long term = species-span, 10 million years c) Start with largest and narrow. Shorter terms should be in alignment with longer terms. d) Individuals may use species goals & policies in personal planning for their 3 terms. Each individual will have different circumstances, so will have different choices. Being informed of what is happening on the species level will help individuals to make informed choices. e) --- f) YOU decide how to arrange your time and resources among the 3 time frames. YOU decide what your time frames are (don't use mine ... use yours). Everyone's situation is different. Then, act. g) Start with LT. Then bring MT into alignment with LT. Then bring ST into alignment with MT. h) Give a few examples. Solicit examples from readers. i) Right now, we do none of this. We simply work on ST, without any focus on MT or LT, so most all work of "activists" will end up wasted in the LT. j) We focus on next 90 days to 4 yrs out. While we give lip service to 50 and 100 yrs, we really don't have any underlying guidelines on how to plan for that, let alone the 10 million yr view! 8. karma does not excuse errors resulting from lack of information! ... a) Errors made with the best of intentions out of ignorance, get no credits in our karmic bank account either as individuals or as a species. 9. Jeff Graef, recv:21 Dec 06, says write a 1 pager ... a) for BVR funding. ?????????????? 10. find Einstein baby picture ... a) We need to watch carefully what we put in our brains, just as we watch the quality of air we breathe and food we eat. Look at all the literature that tells us how stupid we are as a species! We are an infantile species. Do we look at our infants and call them stupid? Look at the baby Einstein, or any baby for that matter. Do we call them stupid? We need to change what we put into our minds first. Then we might start to see a change in what comes out of them. 11. good to start off with, Allan Hirsch's village of 100 ... a) @ recv:5 Mar 01, subj:National Friendship Week. Likely out of date. Update it. b) Good for getting a handle on scope. c) Likewise, compare 100 year human with 10 million year species. 12. on PR, public relations, "make it fun Henry" ... a) PR, marketing, advertising b) selling with "sizzle" c) reframing d) GIGO = garbage in, garbage out e) return to "forward gear" from "reverse gear" of last 350 yrs f) Richard Brenne, Boulder g) Look at the "bill of goods" we sold ourselves! We have reprogrammed our minds for an economy of consumption and waste and we have used these tools to make it fun destroying our nonrenewable resources. Why not reverse the process? Switch to reverse gear. Use all the same psychological tools of PR & marketing to invent ways to make it fun to conserve our resources and find happiness, contentment and fulfillment via the emotional/spiritual plane, as we were doing prior to this insane abberation. Reprogram our minds using the exact same technology! h) ref treaty of westphalia and Dick Cheney: "The war that will not end in our lifetimes." (as a ref. to 30 and 80 yr wars). Time for another paradigm shift! i) Tony Robbins: modeling 13. on "make it fun Henry" ... a) Quinn uses a talking Gorilla b) Jeff suggests using a cigar smoking Dinosaur c) how about the space ship parable? equate 13.7 billion yrs with 100 yrs? 14. doing what is most important, efficient use of limited resources ... a) So much of the sustainable living movement is misallocating and wasting precious resources, out of lack of information. We all have to look at our available resources, lack of time, and pressing need to get plans on the table and implement them. b) Look at human hours invested in the nebulous "peace on earth", energy efficiency, global warming, etc. All of the csen "fix-it" bunch, TSB "Group A" bunch. Millions and billions of human hours are going into ineffectual and exacerbating activities. We are spinning our wheels due to lack of information, lack of user's manuals. c) So much lack of awareness and understanding of Jevons Paradox. d) need to develop efficient plan, focus energies, allocate to the 3 terms (S,M,L) at the individual, group and species levels. Then we might actually achieve "relative peace on earth", stop global warming, heal all the doom and gloom stuff on s1.pco, and get on with growing up as a species and living as we were designed to live on this beautiful garden of a planet for the next 10 to 100 million years! 15. on efficiency, about "spinning our wheels" ... a) spinning and going nowhere, as in Alice ... 1) "it takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place" b) spinning and creeping forward extremely slowly (as in ice and snow on Kipling in Wheat Ridge c) spinning and falling backwards (as on Big Bear Sand Dunes) d) receiving $100, getting a bill for $99 e) receiving $100, getting a bill for $150 f) This is what "the movement", "activists", sustainable living, alternative energy, etc. are up against. 16. brian basor william kotke kottke batch of emails ... a) peg:copies:23 Dec 06 17. Terrence McKenna, per Rusty/Amy ... a) google videos b) amazon.com c) Time Wave Zero 18. Re resource depletion ... a) The ideal method to conserve non-renewables is thru a free market oriented resource based economy & currency. However for such an economy to work efficiently on a global basis will require more computing power than we will likely have over our 10 million year long term. We can still institute a resource based economy without using computers, however it will likely be imperfect and easily abused. b) To minimize abuse and cheating, we will have to turn to the family, religious leaders and education system to inform all people of what happened during the wasteful and polluting 1800-2100 time frame when we were highly uninformed about our planet's resource base. By using education and peer pressure, we should be able to reduce abuse and cheating to tolerable levels. Note that our religious institutions are already providing marriage and drug counseling services and helping members of their flocks get out of debt. So why not incorporate messages to help us all live within our means? c) This system, while imperfect, may be our best hope of installing a sustainable civilization on earth for the remainder of homo sapiens' species-span of 10 to 100 million years. d) Re. free market vs. central planning: Communist Eastern Europe, cheap government subsidized cigarettes and alcohol dispensed to the masses to keep them placated. Is this what we want? 19. re science, religion, and the need for agreement ... a) We need a means of reaching agreement on a wide variety of subjects, prior to coming up with a way to live sustainably under planetary management. b) The modern scientific method is the only known method ever devised by humans for reaching a high degree of agreement on any subject, across geographical, political, religious and cultural boundaries. c) While the scientific method is not perfect and doesn't always result in 100% agreement, after sufficient time for testing and assimilation, it often reaches 99%+ agreement. The very best religion can claim is shown in the adherents.org pie. 20. re presentation order \\order of presentation ... a) and re need to withhold judgement until all puzzle pieces are presented: b) because all pieces of new paradigm are dependent on all others, it is impossible to discern a perfect presentation order. This is easy to see from the puzzle slide, since all pieces fit nicely with one another but each is dependent on its relationship with several other puzzle pieces. 21. re Joni Mitchell's lyric, "We are stardust ..." ... a) ref liblist3.pco, "Cambridge Encyclopedia ..." quote from this book, confirming the Joni Mitchell lyric: "We are true children of the stars ...". 22. --- 23. related: 24. re "your plan will fail" ... a) So because Gene Krantz's possibility of bringing Apollo 13 home alive was way under 1%, because Ernest Shackleton's possibility of saving all 28 was way under 1%, did these men give up and sit around and do nothing? b) Plan S may also be way under 1%, but I am not going to sit around and do nothing! c) plus, Plan S is a winner regardless of whether S-Day occurs in our lifetimes or not. We still leave humanity a great information resource that can be used towards sustainability over the remainder of our species span. d) Joanna Macy quote, @bm.xls ... 1) "Our ancestors back then, bless them, they had no way of knowing if the Great Turning could succeed. No way of telling if a life-sustaining culture could emerge from the death throes of the industrial growth society. It probably looked hopeless at times. Their efforts must have often seemed isolated, paltry, and darkened by confusion. Yet they went ahead, they kept on doing what they could--and, because they persisted, the Great Turning happened." 25. re doom & gloom v good cheer, attitude adjustment ... a) I thought of this in reference to Jay Hanson's attitude and framing, "dieoff.org". If nothing else, he calls those of us w/ PMA to act. b) ref Miller, the story about the man on the vine with rats above and lions below, who plucked a strawberry (p 159) c) ref Shackleton who faced horrible odds, but acted anyway d) etc. 26. re Faith: Trust in Allah ... a) Faith in Action < act! b) Informed Faith < become informed! c) "God helps those who help themselves." --unk d) "Trust in Allah but tie your camel." --unk e) If Providence was with Sir Ernest Shackleton at all those crucial moments when they were on the brink of total disaster, why? Perhaps because they made themselves worthy by their action. f) Will we get the divine help we need by sitting around bemoaning our problems? We need to plan and act. 27. --- 28. GGWS, @bm.xls, review it and note ... a) all correct and incorrect observations. 29. Sustainable Development & Deep Ecology, @bm.xls 30. apply personal development principles to species sustainability ... a) minds programmed for failure, doom, gloom: b) languaging like: dieoff, tragedy of commons c) savinar: present info w/ no solution 31. attitude ... a) quote from Nightingale cassette b) show "setting sail", James Caird image c) show Kranz, "failure is not an option" d) we need to set our sail, set our attitude 32. >> 2 typical responses are denial and doom & gloom, antidote ... a) is stepping back for the generalists, long range point of view, afforded by maximum frames/scopes. We move from denial and/or doom/gloom to a closer approximation of reality. From this vantage point, we can remove ourselves from denial and/or doom/gloom, and begin to see realistic rational and reasonable plans to move to solution & sustainable living. b) From this starting point, we can then move to exploring: c) frame/scope d) puzzle slide e) specialist/generalist grid 33. Plan S is not about the immediate, local, short term situation ... a) however it does address and consider it, but in the context of the long term, global situation. b) Short term problems considered out of context of long term scope/frame, is a recipe for more problems, since there is no vision of what the long term outcome might be. c) The transition period to Plan S sustainability, is the immediate, local, short term action. It is completely within the context of the long term plan. 34. re Lance & Donna, Czech Rainbow, 1995, use of cc ... a) antidote to culture of waste in one time frame, is culture of sustainability in another. Also, similar reaction by a.d. wife in RGV, mid '90's. b) We are all busy wasting in the short term. We do it unconciously, unaware, ignorant we do it. c) Consider the need to waste even more in order to come together and design a sustainable society. 35. Dickens: best of times, worst of times (quotes.pco) ... a) we are living simultaneously in: b) an information dark age c) an age of doom & gloom (ref s1 list) d) and e) an age of enlightenment f) We know so much, yet we know so little. g) We live in a grand paradox. 36. American throwaways, 07/08/07 ... a) @bm.xls, saved locally too b) "100 million trees' worth of bulk mail arrives in U.S. mailboxes each year" c) etc. d) This is just American waste, not world waste! 37. myopic ... a) ie. nearsighted: unable to see distant objects clearly short: lacking foresight or scope; "a short view of the problem"; "shortsighted policies"; "shortsighted critics derided the plan"; "myopic thinking" b) the current 90 day to 4 year window of business and politics prevails 38. jeff suggests adding to "What is Plan S", problem overview ... a) population global warming water shortage b) My objection is that these are all effects of E.P. and Peak Oil. Plan S is about treating causes, not effects. Also, I want Plan S to be unique. There are already plenty of people talking about and endless array of effects. By focusing on effects, we start looking like everyone else, and in the process, lose our USP (unique selling proposition). 39. re the t.s. eliot quote: "... too much reality" ... a) ref quotes.pco, learn more about this quote b) Plan S is indeed about too much reality. And I have not tolerated it well, especially drawn out over 4 decades. It has been like peeling an onion with hundreds of layers, ever so slowly, and crying after every layer is removed, or the removal of a bandage, ever so slowly. c) I will peel the onion for you, rip the bandaid off quickly, so you get to have a good cry all at once, and get over it. d) But first, what is reality, at least in this context? Are you an intellectual, prone to deep thought and consideration? Or are you a simpleton, preferring not to delve into intellectual discussion? e) If a simpleton, I have been through it all [list all the specialties from A to Z both from Sp-Gen Database, thru all the religions, political trips, etc.]. The keyword is "through" ... not settled into, stuck in, attached to, or addicted to. f) With all due respect to my friends and readers who are specialists in any area, Plan S is about moving through them all and into the generalist arena. This is where "reality" as used here, starts coming into focus. Reality is what comes into view after peeling away all the layers of a many hundred layered onion. g) To personalize this, think of a time in your life when you said (or thought) these words: "I used to believe ...". Classic in the West: "... that Santa Claus was real." h) Plan S challenges almost all of our beliefs since our earliest childhood memories, and it challenges them all at once. It is a complete paradigm shift. 40. Flatland, Abbott, see book and DVD, great for paradigm shifting 41. TAGR: \dr\tagr\Chapter3.htm, on crime, just substitute "waste" ... a) "When men first come into contact with crime, they abhor it. If they remain in contact with crime for a time, they become accustomed to it, and endure it. If they remain in contact with it long enough, they finally embrace it, and become influenced by it." 42. Flatland: what I call specialty or discipline, he calls dimension 43. Christian perspectives ... a) Christian woman piano science teacher in Lakewood, CO church ... 1) Playing violin Thanksgiving, 2006, met a woman at piano (Ruth) who accompanied me. ref: \mb\entcolo.pco ^s mountair 2) "The Bible tells what God did, and science tells how God did it." 3) Cambridge, MA, church analogy 4) different time frames, 2.6 M.Y. <> 7 days (Cj Goodwin) 5) allegory/parable, as in Santa Claus 6) Perhaps this could be used as an opener to talk in Christian churches, especially near universities. b) All the leaders of the last intellectual revolution were all Christians: Copernicus, Galileo, Newton c) The Catholic church condemned Galileo to life imprisonment in 1633. Recently, the Church reviewed the case and in 1983 concluded he should not have been condemned, after 350 years! We don't have 350 years now! d) On Christian poverty, etc ... 1) 1902, William James, The Varieties of Religious Experience: "We have lost the power even of imagining what the ancient idealization of poverty could have meant: the liberation from material attachments, the unbribed soul." 2) Lewis Lapham: "ideals that embodied the values of thrift, productive labor, the ownership of land, republican government, Christian poverty, and plain speech" 3) Odum, Prosperous Way Down, p 54, quoting Schumacher near top: "sad at [the] loss of classical Christian heritage" e) Seek Christian ministries that understand science and allegory and want to take Plan S to the world! Bridge to Osteen. 44. benefits of getting this info perspective from a hobbyist, ... a) outside of the college, university, think tank, policy institute, government, political, religious spectrum, not funded by any foundation or philanthropic source: b) The only biases here are my own personal ones. Anytime info comes from a professional, funded source, there are strong biases coming from that source. Funded sources research, conclude and write, what they are paid to research, conclude and write. c) Also, my 50/50 left/right brain (math/computer, creative artist). d) History is written by the victor. e) Research reports are written by the funded. f) Related: See the 2 articles @bm.xls ^s "hard-wired". Note slight differences in lingo, whether coming from the Christian publication! 45. Al-Jazari, inventor ... a) mechanical engineer, camshaft, reciprocating engine b) @bm.xls ^s Al-Jazari 46. Georgia Guidestones, 500 million, @bm.xls 47. Mises and Malthus @ www.mises.org, @bm.xls ... a) article re Mises on carrying capacity 48. scope: presentation angle ... a) long term view, species span, 1 to 100 million years b) titanic c) flatland d) plenty of others working on short and medium term views e) offramp to short and medium term views f) looking for others interested in l.t. view 49. Pope to youth: Save planet 'before it is too late', @bm.xls 50. How do you fix something that's broken, if you don't know ... a) how it works, or what makes it tick? You can't, which is why nothing we have tried has worked. With E.P., and putting genes and DNA at the center of things, we finally get to understand how life works, and how our brains work. Now, we can build plans that might actually work! 51. Janaia, 09/30/07, re airplane off course 99% of the journey ... a) This is likely another fabrication of the PDI like the Yale story. Were the airline pilots ever consulted? b) The actual # is totally dependent on where the threshold of "off course" is set. Or, at what threshold corrections are made. c) Would a pilot climb into a cockpit and takeoff without understand how the think worked? We are only learning how our brains work at this time. d) There is no common vision of where we are going, so how can we plot and steer a course toward a vision (goal) we do not have? 52. re "more gene", and evolution in dispersed energy environment ... a) Since we (and all species of life) evolved over billions of years in a dispersed low energy environment, we naturally developed a "more gene" rather than a "less gene". Had it been the other way around, I think we would have either developed a "less gene" or life never would have taken off. b) Since we operate largely off of our genetic instinct, and we haven't had users manuals, we are not adapted to operating in this high energy fossil fueled environment, so we are destroying it. Our only hope is to use our brains to understand this situation and intentionally act in contravention of our innate genetic programming. 53. languaging and imaging: "us" as a meme, instead of "us-them" ... a) Dali Lama in recent Oct, 2007 visit to Bloomington, IN: b) In his sometimes broken English, the Dalai Lama questioned the role of violence in society: "When you look from space at this small planet, there is hardly a justification to fight." Economic problems, environmental issues and overpopulation may plague the world, but they can be overcome, he said, when people think of the "whole group" as one entity. "In that new reality, the concept of 'we' or 'they' is no longer there." 54. child psychology, child psychologists ... a) know how to treat children. Do they tell us to tell kids they're stupid? No. We treat our childlike species in all the ways we are taught NOT to do by our child psychologists. Perhaps we should consult with them and apply their teachings to our species! 55. Re: S-Day, nothing changes but direction, from quotes.pco ... a) "The great thing in this world is not so much where we are, ... 1) but in what direction we are moving." --Oliver Wendell Holmes 56. prepare for best or worst case scenario? ... a) Ran Prieur wrote in email of 7 Oct 07 ... 1) i also think the crash and the dieoff have been overrated. the more i study it, the more i think we're going to get an economic crash, and a slow decline in population and energy use. there will be local catastrophes, but no global ones other than a painful adjustment when economic growth is no longer possible. b) So what do we plan for? Best or worst? And how do we evaluate which scenario is best or worst anyway? One view is that "what is worst for WC3" is actually best for humanity in the long run. So far, we have been stretching the party out, and it has been devastating. c) My thought is to prepare for the worst crash, short of nuclear, asteroid, etc. If we have overprepared, it can never hurt us ... rather it will be helpful. 57. scales, scaling, options for representing numbers on huge scales ... a) arithmetic (to show impossibility of using arithmetic) b) e.o. wilson method in The Sixth Extinction c) logarithmic, as in \ps\Earth's_natural_wealth_img2.jpg 58. Mother Teresa: "This is the poorest place ...", quotes.pco 59. importance of getting vital info onto acid-free paper, ... a) into libraries, and especially in or near the remote areas most likely to survive the deepest crash. b) If we keep putting information onto hard drives all over the planet, and we lose the grid and/or the global currency system, then all this writing, blogging, etc. will be looked back upon as a massive exercise in word masturbation at the end of the party. 60. resignation: What a Way to Go ... a) travel blog: We spoke of many things in Vancouver, of hopes and plans and dreams, of hopelessness and planlessness and dreamlessness. b) from the drydipstick.com review: "face that death with honor, knowing that we have tried everything we could to right the wrongs that we ourselves have created. If we lose, let that loss be noble" c) It's like we're programming our brains for defeat. Stinkin' thinkin'. 61. scientific proof, "never been proven scientifically" ... a) as an excuse for not taking action. b) This represents a lack of understanding of what science is, how it works and its purpose in the world. c) Theories are just that, theories, however they garner support and agreement from the scientific community over time. Since we have no God given users manuals that explain the natural laws of the universe, our scientific theories are the best we can do. d) Ref: \cp\quotes.pco, Einstein on "workings of a watch" & "on science" e) Science provides a basis for wide agreement over thousands of religious, spiritual, cultural, political and geographical boundaries. f) We have big problems. While us "lay public" argue about whether global warming or evolution are real or provable, our planet's scientists are in broad agreement on these things. If we don't take action, we watch collapse continue and seal our doom. 62. wilderness survival, Tom Brown Jr, @bm.xls, etc. 63. sustainability, stable, static, definitions, discussion ... a) Ran Prieur does excellent job @ his saveciv.htm, saved locally. ^s stable 64. --- 65. several on how societies change, civilizations change: 66. re changes in morality that will drive paradigm shift ... a) ref quotes2.pco & @bm.xls: b) "Even the alarmingly large crowd of people who would rather show off than conserve will change their habits when energy consumption becomes an instant indicator of stupidity and social indifference." --Scott Burns, Dallas Morning News original article @bm.xls c) but then point out Jevons Paradox re conservation, but we're all muddling along. Part of the process. 67. use of religion & peer pressure to modify behavior ... a) Collapse, Jared Diamond: b) p 293, last para: "social tradition, same values, kinship, ritual, morality reinforced by legend & mythology" c) p 299, 60%: "led from the top by successive shoguns, who invoked Confucian principles to promulgate and official ideology that encouraged limiting consumption and accumulating reserve supplies in order to protect the country from disaster." 68. Most individuals don't change. They die and are replaced ... a) by individuals of younger generations who create, embrace and promote new policies and paradigms. b) There are always a limited few who are willing to question their own attitudes and beliefs and to change them. However most will go to their deaths in denial, pointing their fingers at others, as they are breathing their last breaths. Some will simply commit suicide, rather than admit they were wrong and change. Or, they will be too old and set in their ways to consider relearning how to live. c) Jared talks about societies where the leadership had the courage to drop old values and beliefs that were destroying them. 69. So where do we focus our limited time and energies? ... a) On people and policies that are old, ineffective, destructive and dying? Or on people and policies that are new, uplifting and in harmony with creating sustainable, stable civilization? There are plenty doing the former, and almost none doing the latter. This is a choice we all need to make. Why do what is already being done? Why not put energy in places where it is lacking. b) Move away from finger pointing us-them attitudes. Move towards inclusive us attitudes. 70. re focus and doom-gloom ... a) When we put our focus on the collapse of a civilization, we end up in doom-gloom. b) When we change our focus to the building of a new sustainable/stable civilization, we get energy and it becomes fun. We get happy, content and even exhilarated. c) What percentage of our lives are we focusing on collapse versus building something new? It's no wonder when the subject of collapse comes up, the room fills with doom-gloom. 71. --- 72. Rusty, Steve Clark, Nick, Asuryah, different philosophies ... a) different frames b) differences in languaging (i.e., myth v religion) c) science <> religion conundrum, genetic bias d) worker <> management; chief <> indian conundrum, genetic bias